#15 - I Escaped from a Cult - Interview with Sarah LaFever

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hi, this is Dr. Todd. Thank you for joining us for an interesting conversation with Sarah LaFever, who spent about 20 years inside a cult and was able to escape and has spent the last several years rebuilding her life. And her story is really quite amazing. So, Sarah, thank you very much for joining the conversation today. I'm really happy to have you. Thank you. So I, you know, we we've had a chance to have a conversation a bit, not only about your years in the in the cult, but also some of the stuff that happened during childhood. Um that was that was pretty difficult, right? I I know you shared some of the things with you know kind of the family life and and some of the struggles that uh that that you had when you were younger. Uh just to give everybody out there just a little bit of a feel for what that what that experience was like growing up. Can you just share a bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Well, from a very young age, uh my mother became very like terminally ill. Um so I spent uh we um started with a very abusive uh relationship, her second marriage with my sister's dad, and that um just led to all of her life's traumas boiling down into her physical um disease, and she ended up uh spending many years in the hospital and like deathly ill, and that uh just caused a lot of instability for me and my sister. We were separated, sent to family homes, Christian homes, and believe it or not, the church families were the worst. They they were the ones who were allowed to have other people's children, even though they had been in jail for murder before. So, yes. Yes, and that was uh yeah, so um one of the families that we lived with, uh, we found out later after I had experienced some serious abuse, that they had um been in jail for uh murdering their first child, you know, shaking them to death. Murder sounds serious, but it was, you know, they shook them to death and then eventually got out of jail, you know, whatever, paid their time, and then uh had three more children, uh were Christians and uh were part of the family that one of the families that took us a lot. And uh learned a lot about how to keep my mouth shut, take the blame for other people, take the punishment that other people deserve. Um it was my calling because there I was unable to do anything about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

So when you talked about some of the uh abuse that you experienced in some of these foster homes, I mean, was it like physical, emotional, sexual stuff?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Yeah, that's the particular family was um most mostly it was physical and uh sexual or threat of sexual or keep you in a vulnerable place so that you know you you know that anything sexual could happen at any moment, like certain rules that they had about sleeping, you um, you know, you had to sleep with your underwear off and the door open, and um uh you had to, you know, it's like they had a a rotation. This is like in the 80s, so people didn't it wasn't like old time where you would just share bath water, but you know, like they had this uh rotation of like who goes first taking a bath, and by the time I'd get in there, it was like black and gross, and because I was like the foster kid or the one that wasn't part of the family, so I was like, I'm not bathing in there, so I would just sponge bath in the sink, and then I'd get a spanking for it, like many spankings for it, till I was like black and blue, because I bathed with the sink instead of the filthy water in the bathtub. Like, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

They had everyone in the family sharing the same bath water.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, like on bath night, it was like the oldest child, the next child, the next child. My sister, because she was little and the cute and a baby. I don't even actually I don't remember if she actually had to take a bath that I don't remember. She was two and everybody adored her, and then um, of course, I was the last one because you know I was the other kid. So um yeah, so I grew up a lot feeling like I was never part of a family because I was always part of somebody else's family, but I was also always the one that would just be sent away quickly. You know, it's like, oh well, we did our week with the you know, the church member's kid, so you know, now it's your turn. And so it was like, and then even like I know my mother loved me, like that was deeply ingrained. I know she loved me, you know, there was never a question. Um and but when she was ill and she would come go home and try to, you know, like recover, she was still so weak and ill, um, because just she just was, um, that she would think she could take care of me, so then I'd be released from the foster home. And if it was any home at all, I would never go back to the same one. You don't go back, you go to another one. So I would go home because I was going home because she would think she could care for me, so I'd go home so she could, you know, have her daughter there now, because I was like five or something by then, and she would realize quickly that she wasn't really able to take care of me, you know, the way she wanted to, and the way she felt like I deserved as a child. Um, and so she would put me back into a home. And you know, sometimes I I didn't know if it was a foster home or a church home. Sometimes I could tell, but some people were just like they treated me like they were like bitter that they had to take care of me. Like, wow, you know, or they would like, because I was the child that wasn't theirs, then they could like openly discuss whatever, you know, like if I clogged the bathroom toilet, you know, because I'm like, whatever. I just sorry, like nobody ever does that. The whole entire house and all of the guests had to hear how this child over here did that. What the fuck did you do? Did you have a big shit? You know, did you use, you know, just like all the, you know, and it was just like, and it was just, you know, so it's like I always felt like um a burden.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Wow. Wow, that is brutal. So a couple things that really stuck out to me uh it from what you just shared. One is how could a family that was so abusive and actually had been convicted of killing a child by shaking it, be allowed to accept foster children? And why would your moan?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

It wasn't a foster family. It wasn't a foster family, it was a church family.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Oh, yeah. So we would get bounced around because we're not gonna be able to do it. This so this is just kind of an unofficial in the system.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yes. So we were bounced around in the system and back and forth. So like if she thought it was just gonna be like a couple nights or a week at the most, we'd go to a church family. But then once it was realized, oh no, like the when she first started going to the hospital a lot, I remember we would get bounced with like lots of church families, like a week here, a week there, and it was like, and every time it was time to go, it was like, okay, we don't have time for you anymore. Like they would say things, now you need to go somewhere else. Like, you know, you've extended your stay. Wow, you know, we can't have her past a week, you know. Like, and I would always hear these adult conversations about, you know, I've been there too long now, you know, stuff like that. And I don't even know where my sister was during this whole time. I had no idea where she was. Just my mom's gone, don't know where. Like I I guess she's in the hospital or something, and then we're just bounced on, you know, I've extended my stay, I'm I'm a burden, I'm I'm too much, you know, all the time.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

And you okay? Yeah, yeah, I'm good. Um I can't imagine being a little kid and listening to adults talking about how we've had her too much, she's a burden, it's time for her to go, and you you know, somebody else needs to take her. I just can't imagine what that experience must have felt like.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Like as an adult processing these things and trying to figure out like why do I feel this way? Why do I view, you know, why like um why do I always feel like a burden in every situation? You know, because it it takes away your confidence to to give or to receive or to just engage with humans on certain levels because you walk into a situation and you're instantly, I know I'm gonna be too much. I know I'm gonna be a burden. Anything I need or want is invalid. Um, so it's like I've approached adult life that way, you know. And you know, there's a lot of other things like not being allowed to have boundaries, you know, not being allowed to be the one who can fall apart and cry, because for whatever reason, I was the one who had to not have problems with anything. I wasn't allowed to have problems. I've learned that it's shaped how I've interacted with people and what I've like even the respect I've allowed for myself, you know, because it's like, well, I'm the burden. You know, I don't deserve love. I don't deserve gifts or care or, you know, like it I have to be the only one to be in in the relationship to be giving at all times. Otherwise, I'm a burden.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

I understand that feeling. I understand that feeling. I mean, clearly I I'm not in your head and I can't know what that's like for you, but I've experienced something very similar where there's just this sense that there's nothing innately valuable about me, that I'm I'm more a burden to be managed for people rather than something to be celebrated and enjoyed. So tell me a little bit about the the cult and how you found that and what it was what draw you, what drew you to being involved in the cult that you got involved in?

SPEAKER_01 10:41

I I don't know that I was like looking for a cult, but I did believe that when I found what I was looking for, it was going to be a group of people. They were going to all believe the same thing, they were going to be intent on one purpose together, and they were gonna be like a family. That's what I felt like when I find that, that's where I will fulfill my purpose. And I met somebody who, through a set of circumstances, got me to uh Cape Cod, where two months later I met the community. In essence, I was looking, I was looking for them without knowing who I was looking for or what exactly, but at the same time, because of the things I had been through from like my very first memory ever that I can recall shaped my purpose, which was I wanted to create spaces that were safe, where children could have a family, where they could feel like they belonged. And even though like I knew my mom loved me, I still wanted to have a space where people could find themselves, explore themselves, be okay to be you.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

I mean because you never had that.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah, like yeah, I like even though I had a mom who loved me, I I I still didn't have what I needed to be me because I don't know if it's my life's circumstances that shaped this crazy person that I am and the and the way that I view life, but like I don't view life like most people. Like everything just seems so different, and everything just seems like it's on like a bigger scale. Like I see things differently.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

You know, when you're talking about this desire for this sense of family, for this sense of community, for this safe space where children can be themselves, right? I mean, that is just something that you never had growing up. There was never a safe space to be you. Being just you know, having people fight over who had to take you, right, certainly didn't feel like you were welcome anywhere, or there was a sense of family. And with your mom's illness and not really having a relationship with your dad, and you know, going from family to family and being bounced around and having not even being with your sister, you know, a lot of the time. There just would be this sense of you know of not having some of the fundamental things that we need as people, right? I mean, having this sense of you know, kind of a home, a sense of, you know, a sense of place, a sense of belonging, a sense of being loved. So, you know, when people think about when people think about cults, right, they oftentimes think about um, you know, not not having the ability to have your own beliefs or have your own thoughts or have your own space and things like that. But that seemed like the very thing that you were seeking when joining the cult. But once you got in, um what did you find as as far as like your ability to really develop who you were as a as a person and all of that? What was that that experience like for you?

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Well, one of the things that was like, I guess you'd say their selling point for me was their whole mission was to it was like you would find who you were created to be by just doing whatever you were told, but not but it wasn't it, it wasn't presented that way. It was like if you give your whole heart to whatever task you're asked to do, then that's how you'll find out if you're good at it. You know, so it's like you would start doing anything. Like, I mean, they had me grinding salt, they had me in the kitchen, but they learned really fast. I suck in the kitchen. I will totally happily clean up after you and make it immaculate and sparkle, but cooking, nope, hardly even like eating. So, anyways, they they put me in training, you know, and so I got to learn how to teach, and that became obviously like my strength. So I was like known as a training teacher everywhere I went. They're like, oh great, a training teacher's coming, you know. That's what we called homeschooling because we homeschooled all of our children collectively. Um, but uh, so it's like I guess you say like the promise that they gave you was that this is a space where you can be you and you'll be accepted even when you fall, because you can get back up. Um, because the the whole point was like, you know, Son of God forgives you of your sins. And so then there's every every religion has their system of how you reach that forgiveness, you know, and they had created their interpretation of how you're forgiven and how you're saved and how you get to escape death and you know, all of those parts. Um, but what was different was they also interpreted the Bible differently in a way I'd had never seen in any of the other religions I had researched, because during my search I researched everywhere. So, like they didn't, like they actually believed that science, geology, and religion should um support each other in facts, you know. So like they didn't believe that the earth was created 6,000 years ago. They believed that there's room for, you know, they like they said that there's a space between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, and that was a lot of time, you know. So it's like I never heard that before. The way they interpreted families was very different. And so um, when I first got there, I was just uh impressed by the families, the acceptance, like they loved me, and like they accepted me and they they they plugged me in immediately and they could like they could see my light, they could see my potential, they could see my shine, they could, they like the second day I was there, there was somebody who else was a guest, and they wanted to use the bathroom, but the guest bathroom downstairs was was full, and so they just said, Oh, you just have to wait. And then they turned to me and whispered, it's okay, you're gonna be here a while. You can go use the upstairs family bathroom. Like the second day I was there, and I was just like, Oh my gosh, I'm like part of the family, you know. And they were like, you know, old school, they they homeschooled, they had home births, they were, you know, all natural, they were very health conscious, which coming from my background, I was like, oh yes, you know. And I was 20 and in a total fantasy world and was thinking, oh yes, these people are serving God and they have a great purpose in in on this planet. So if I get there, just won't even be time for getting sick. People don't get sick here. I was just like, people just don't have time. If I get sick, I just don't have time. I'll just keep going. I don't have time to die and go to the hospital. All this crazy stuff. So in my stupid little fantasy of a 20-year-old, I was like, you know, I've I painted that picture for myself, which was totally wrong. I was very sick a lot of the times I was there and a lot of health issues, but not because of their life, just because of my body, you know. And so, anyways, that was um it. But um, yeah, so so when I joined them, I just I fell in love with the people. And honestly, like if you go to their yellow delis, the people are great. You can see why people would just be like, oh my gosh, I feel loved. I can't, I mean, I don't know what they're like now because I don't know if things have changed, but um, I know every time I've been there, it's like people they love you, and they're taught to genuinely love you, like they literally do not view people based on money. They that they don't. I mean, maybe the leaders who are trying to get jobs, maybe they look for business reasons, like who can help that. But as far as like in general, people like people had no money, monetary value. We didn't value, we weren't supposed to, but we didn't uh try to get someone to come in because they had resources. It was more like, are you a good fit? Do you want this? Do you want to give up everything to participate in this great and awesome purpose that we have? If not, that's fine. You're not gonna be happier. We don't care if you have a shit, if you have a ton of resources and and and skill sets, and we want you, but you don't want to be here, we don't want you. You know what I mean? Like we don't, because we know we'll fall apart. You know, I think at a certain time some people probably changed, but in general, that was our motto. You know, it's like it's just how we lived. We didn't we were there to care for each other, like we really were, and by caring for each other, we and by just responding to you know, whatever the needs were around us, we were building something great, something that was putting an end to the selfishness that destroys humanity. That was our goal. We were going to make a better humanity, you know, that's filled with the love of the creator, you know, the forbearance, the forgiveness, the patience, the caring, the all the things that are the make a perfect human. We were creating that goal, you know, and we had child training teachings that that taught us how to do that to the by the third generation, you know, we have this great, amazing perfect generation equivalent to the Son of God and their perfection and you know, selflessness, you know. So, um, but it it literally was all about just dealing with the root of the problems of humanity right here first, you know, not pointing, we weren't supposed to be pointing the finger, you know. Like there's a lot of if you were caught pointing the finger, the question was like, oh, well, what's in you? Unless, of course, it was, you know, so so that was the basis. But then of course, it's a twist, it's like the Twilight Zone, you know, just like my whole life was like, I was very loved, but yet there's all this other crap, you know. So it was very similar to that in the sense of, you know, it's like you knew you were loved, you knew you were giving your all, you knew you were cutting off the root of you know, suffering in humanity on a daily basis, and you were creating something better for your family, for everybody. And then nothing was my own, and yet I needed to be responsible for everything as though it were my own, because that's how we lived. Like as soon as I got done being baptized, they brought me back to the house that I was staying, and they said, This is now your house, and you have houses all over the world. You know, you have businesses all over the world. Everything became yours when you were there, meaning they will now send you anywhere that they need you, and it's your home or your industry. And so you would take ownership and responsibility as though it's yours because it is. And oftentimes the person whose name is on the property, the business, the house didn't even live there. Like our boat, it was registered to the person who likes lived in England. I don't even know if you ever said. Put on the boat, you know, before his name got put on it. Like, I don't know. Like they basically just looked for whoever's name could legally apply to whatever it was that they were looking for, like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

So at at some point things really didn't go well in the cult, right? At some point you you started to see things or experience things that didn't uh that didn't feel right or didn't feel good. Uh what what did you start to notice? I mean, what were the things that you were experiencing in in the cult where you were like, wait a minute, this is not this is not a healthy place for me to be.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Yeah. Um well there's years where we noticed that the community itself was falling apart, you know, you could say. There's many, many c locations that where the leadership was just they weren't they weren't really holding to the the standards, like um it's an abusive it's um well okay the way that we structured everything there there there there was just structure and there was ways that we kept our culture pure and there and then when people started to kind of like wake up because of something that happened in their life, perhaps, with in you know, like the way they were being handled, all of a sudden they woke up and was like, wait, this is not what I can so then you can start to see people like we called it falling away, but on this side of things, I'm looking at like no, that was more of the awakening, you know, and it's like so you'd start to see people going through this like awakening, and some people what it would cause um there we would also call it um the sifting, you know, like when you throw the weed up in the air and you sift out the shaft. So we called it the sifting, and so there'd be a time when people start awakening and seeing the queen for what it wasn't, they'd start to speak, and that's when all of a sudden it's like you know, like people would start tearing them down and trying to twist what they were saying and make it sound like oh, they have doubt and leprosy and don't listen to them, and and all of a sudden they became like the spotlight of terror to the community to our culture, and so then um certain communities, like if they were in leadership, those locations would start to not keep the structure, and so then everybody would start to fall apart, things weren't happening properly, um people were getting hurt, and nobody was standing up for them. Um, and so specifically, so so there's a location where we felt that that was happening very strongly, and it was like we were losing all of our traditions, all of our core, um, and a lot of things happened there. Um, but that's when I really started to open my eyes, started noticing like, wait a minute, the spirit of God is not here. Like that that spirit that or that you know, the energy that drew me here that made me believe that this was what it said it was, that I could put my whole soul into supporting and growing this. It felt like it wasn't where I was in that location. And so I was like, well, I still want to believe that everything I've been investing in is real. So it's just not here. So I'm gonna keep making this environment as best as I can and keep investing to get it back to what it's meant to be. And eventually we closed that place down. Um, it's now reopened, but um under different management. Um, but um so that started happening probably around the time I had my fourth child. I just started like my awakening started, but I was still wanting to hold on to what I believed I'd been building because I was building a future for my children. You know what I mean? Like I had become, I had gone from when I walked walked in the door wearing boy boxers, okay, and you know, military-issue jump boots, you know, walking in there and then being feminized to complete submission to where even if I had an idea for you know something nice to do with my with my husband, I was taking control and I wasn't allowed. I had to leave it to him. And he was fucking boring. Um, you know, so but anyways, and it's not like, anyways, whatever the point be, it's like I would be ridiculed for for doing that, you know. And so it's like I had to really be retrained and rewired and redesign myself from the person I was, which I was still a teenager. I needed to redesign my adult life, but I had to redesign it to fit there. And then all of a sudden I'm seeing it falling apart, and I'm like, everything I believed, everything I've built for my children, everything I've built for humanity, everything is falling apart if we as a people fall apart.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

What was the moment that made you decide that it was time for you to go? I gotta go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

The moment that I made that decision was okay, so my my husband there was always well, I think he was bipolar, so anyway, so he had that tendency, but he was manipulative and abusive emotionally, mentally, psychologically, and all of that. Um but he never laid a hand on me. But I I knew when I got married, if we were out here, he that he'd there'd be no restraint and he would physically hurt me. I just could tell. Turns out he had abused his previous girlfriends before the community, so I was not wrong in judging that. But there I felt safe. Um, and so that is when it really like um woke me up because he and I were having a conversation for like an hour. I was just being the good wife, listening to him, supporting whatever he was saying. He was complaining about the leaders and this and that, and I'm just like hearing about it all the time. He's always complaining about doing my job. And then when he was done, I was like, Okay, can I go and do my training planning now? I have to go to the barn and do my job. You know, basically that's sort of course I said a little different, and he's like, Yes, so he released me. I went there, did not knowing he was chasing me. And I go in there, I go upstairs, and all of a sudden he turns me around and I'm looking right at him. He chased me through the barn, like across the property, through the barn, didn't know it, and then turned me around and grabbed my shoulder and started shaking me. No bruises, nothing. But at that moment, I freaked out and he wouldn't let me leave. There was one exit, one exit, and it was behind him, and he would not let me pass. He took his hands off me, but he wouldn't let me pass, and I was just like, you know, all of a sudden, all my childhood traumas started, you know, coming up. And then so I went downstairs, and we always had man, at least a boy over 16. Like we were never unprotected as women, you could say, you know, like this is the culture, there's always a man there. It was the one time in my entire life there was not one man or boy child, not even a child that was male on the property. And I was like, like the bake, everybody's like, they just disappeared. And I'm running downstairs looking for a man for help. I couldn't find anybody, so I found a woman. And I told her what was happening, and she turned to me, she goes, Well, what did you do to provoke him?

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

And I was just like, What? And so then for the next like year, everything just got really weird for me. Like he was chasing me while I'm carrying my child, which was major flashbacks from when I was a child. My mother was, you know, running with me and running away from my sister's dad. So I'm just like living in PTSD while living in the present. And nothing is looked at like mental health. So it's like, I'm crazy, I'm a rebellious woman all of a sudden, you know, and the and every time that I would like, and so then I like would go and tell somebody, can I get help? Can I go sleep at a different house? Can I sleep in the barn? Like, can I anywhere can you just help me? That it was always like, no, you need to be a good wife, you need to really like submit to him. And and and then they're like, and I was like, Can I leave when I feel unsafe? No, you can't. You need to stay there and listen to what he has to say. And then finally, like, I was just like, so then I'd make sure that if he was chasing me, I'd run into a room that had a bunch of people. And so I did that one time. And it backfired. All of a sudden, it was my fault for causing a scene. Okay, so one of the the structures there that held us all together was if there was any rift between two people, um, and you and it was time to come to the gatherings, but we gathered morning and evening, if there's a rift, you would come um as a woman uncovered, and as a man, you wouldn't wear your diet and we wouldn't lift our hands, like we wouldn't pretend we were in unity with everyone. So technically, during this time, I should have, like, we as a couple should have been not connected. You know, I should have been wearing the signs that we're not doing well. But he was always so ashamed of that is like to him, it's like you had to look good, even though we were in a freaking community, you know what I mean? And so he would not, so we would go there and we would look like we were connected. He still wanted us to pretend. And I would go into the leader in the morning, like, did you see what happened today? And then he's gonna goes, Why are you all wearing your your you know head covering a diadem? And I'm looking at him like, help, please help. And then he would just look at my husband, my husband would say something, and he would just look at me like, I don't understand what's going on. You know, like I'm magically uh conjuring up some sorcery or something that's confusing this image that we're seeing. And it was just weird, you know, and it was like I started feeling like I was living in the twilight zone because people would say one thing and then do the do the opposite, and it just got really like even my ex-husband was like he'd like be turning on me and then go to the minha and speak these amazing revelations uh about his inner self. And I'm like but anyways, and then no, and then everyone was believing him and thinking I was crazy. And then finally, he he did attack me, like actually like jumped on top of me and shook me, poked my daughter in the eye. She still remembers that didn't hurt her, but you know, it was traumatizing. And she's poked me in the eye. And I was like, Good, remember that always. Anyways, and then he jumped on top of me and I said, If you touch me, I'm going to scream. So, of course, he went to cover my mouth, and I was screaming, and my daughter came in, my my older daughter came in and pulled him off of me. And but because I screamed at just the right time, it made the leaders have to do something, so they sent him away, which I don't agree with how they did that either. But anyway, so during that season was when I was really looking at how we were being treated, how the community was handling the situation, and was just realizing like this place is not safe. And they are trying to turn everything on me as though I'm the culprit, but everybody knew, everybody could tell you he was intense. Women were afraid of him. People didn't come to us and tell me things about my family because they were afraid of him. You know what I mean? So it's like it wasn't me making up crap, they knew this about him, and they tried to frame me for something I never did, which was having an affair which never happened. Like, it was like, but the 40-year-old virgin type person, you know what I mean? Like, seriously, like we're never even in the same side of the room together, but they just looking for something so that I could be accused. And so then they made up this whole thing, made it bigger than it was, and then used it as um bribery to get me to forgive my husband and let him come back. And I was like, I forgive him, I just don't want to be around him. I just I don't feel comfortable. I I want my space, I don't want, you know, and that wasn't good enough because you know, I'm a woman, they can't have a woman making those kinds of decisions. And um, so and also our family was gonna be a better workhorse if we were working together as a team. So they had to get him back. So they brought him back and they said, if if you don't accept him back, then we're gonna take your children away one at a time. And so I did what was best for the family and I took him back, but then the and and then there's a space in the Bible, there's a space in the Bible because you know we believe in the Bible that says, you know, if a couple needs to take time for themselves and not be sexually interactive, they can do that for the sake of like, you know, seeking God better and stuff like that. And so I showed him that verse, I was like, we just went through a lot. Can we please take time away and not have to touch each other? Like, I need this space. We need to, I was like, I really need to evaluate myself. You know, we've been through a lot. And he was like, sure. The very next day he goes, Are we still doing this? Like, when do I, how long do I have to wait? And it was just like, I felt like I never even was given space to do that, you know, and which made it where I wanted him even less, you know, and was I didn't want to be naked with him. I want to go like change in the closet. I like would rather sleep under the bed anywhere, you know. And um, so we didn't do well when he came back, obviously, and I just kept coming up with some reason to not have sex with him, and they were gonna send me away for that reason, and so um, it took me like a year and a half to find somebody who, like a family member, who had room for any of us at all. Um and so then um I finally, my sister finally uh was able to take us, but I couldn't take everybody, so I it was kind of like, you know, the story is like there's a flood, and you know, you're gonna drown, and it's like you can only save one child, and so you hope that the others know how to swim. And so I took the two that I knew could not swim, and I took those two and left notes and and phone numbers to the other three, and um uh we we managed to escape, and um, and then while we were escaping, their their ABBA realized I was gone and found their and went digging through their stuff and got their letters with their phone numbers before they even got back to their room. So found out later my children ever had their number my number.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Wow. So tell me about the the actual escape. What was tell me about like that event. How did you how did you actually get out of there?

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Um, well, my my first plan was to pack two duffel bags full of like immert like in stuff to feed my kids, like food and and and anything. And I realized, wait, none of this is like insta food. We don't have insta food, we have to cook everything. So I was like, so what good is like dry rice and beans gonna do me? So then I would unpack my bags, put the food all back, and then um, and then finally, like the day of um, so okay, so uh what the whole time I was planning to escape, I in order to communicate, I like I had already been um restricted in my movement and communication to where I wasn't allowed to talk to anybody, and I wasn't allowed out of the house without permission and going somewhere for very specific. And um and we had three of those, you know, three just landline phones, but they were portable. So they were um, so I had to find all three of them, take out their batteries, hide them in my drawer, and then when I was ready to call my sister to you know communicate and try to get help, then I only had one phone. And that way nobody, because I had had somebody actually pick up the phone and listen to my conversation, and uh that's how I ended up getting locked up um for a week um in my room. Um, anyways, and so in order to get out, I had to hide these phones, and then when somebody came looking for it, it's like I only had one phone, you know, and then I would keep the others, and then sometimes somebody would find uh, you know, figure out that they needed them, so then I'd have to go put them back and then go hide them again. And you had to go find them, they weren't as on the stand. You had to go door to door to ask people, hey, you got a phone? Like, so you had to like be obvious you were looking for a phone when I'm not supposed to have a phone, you know what I mean? So it was like very challenging to get these phones and then hide them. Um, and uh so anyway, so that was like how I managed to do my communicating, but then um the actual day to get out, I wasn't able to carry anything with me because I was supposed to do lunch that day, and this one lady just happened to be super freaking nosy and just kept checking on me, like kept checking on me, and I'm just like, fuck. So finally, in order to get out, what I did is I dressed all but me and my two youngest daughters in two outfits, and then put a hoodie around our waist and on our body, and then our winter coat, and then I had two backpacks, and I I knew my youngest was probably gonna start, you know, wetting the bed from the change of life, and so I had two all-in-one cloth diapers still, and I put those in the bag, and then I just had like our hygiene things and the our identities, you know, like important papers, and um just like the bare essentials. So I had two backpacks and because the little one couldn't carry a backpack, so um my I had a four-year-old that I was taking with me and a seven-year-old that I was taking with me, and so the seven-year-old carried a backpack, and I carried a backpack, and we we managed to sneak by the house and get past the nosy lady at one moment because she was like taking kids to the bathroom or something. So, and then we ran up the hill, like it was I don't know, maybe a half a mile away um to this old abandoned church, and we just stayed behind there until and I kept peeking out until I saw my my sister, and it as we were driving away, I saw my my ex-husband, well husband at the time, walking up the the Ash Gray Church Road um behind us, and he like just missed us. Um, so uh that was that that was the escape, and then we we got out, um, and then that night we went immediately into this whole church, like Thanksgiving candlelight service, which that whole experience was wild because I'm going from a cult into a Baptist family because my sister's a a preacher's wife, so we went we went to live in the parish with her, and uh they they're some form of Baptist, but that was actually worse than the cult itself in a certain way, because like we were ostracized to the basement um because my children called me ema and she didn't want my her children. She's like, she treated me like I was some demon that brought in like cult stuff into her family. Like when I would get to use the computer, I'd notice in the in the browser history there's all this like how to deprogram somebody, and she was like constantly having like these family meetings with just me after the children went to bed to like try to like I don't know, convert me to Jesus again or something. And she was like trying to help me get my life together, but forcing me to wear makeup and well, here at least it's organic, and then making me feel bad when she paid for anything, you know, like just so you know this is a very expensive mascara. I'm like, I don't want mascara, you know, and and it's just like she's just like this is expensive to take care of you. And like, so when I got my tax return, I was like, I sent her like I don't know, to me, 500 bucks was a lot at that time. So I sent her 500 bucks. I was like, it's all I have, you know. But when I got food stamps, I used them like though they used them, you know, like I don't know. Wow. It was just, it was yeah, it was just like I literally was about ready to go live in a in a in a woman's shelter instead with my children. I was like, can I just go live in a woman's shelter? This is bad.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

So what has been the biggest challenge uh after spending, I mean, you you spent like 20 years in the cult or something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Yeah. The entire formative years of my adulthood.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

And and that came on the heels of you know, growing up with all of the disruption and you know, being moved around from home to home, never feeling like you belonged, never feeling like you really were safe. And then there's this whole cult experience, and now you're getting out of that. And um what has been kind of the biggest challenge for you? I mean, you just you got out what, seven years ago? Something like that? Five years ago? Eight, eight years. Eight years ago?

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Eight, eight now.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Yep. I mean, so that I mean, it this is still fairly fresh. I mean, it's not like you got out 20 years ago, right? I mean, what is what has been the biggest challenge that you have had to deal with? Um getting out of there and trying to establish yourself in in a kind of the the normal adult world, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

So I made so during that year and a half before I left, I was planning how I was gonna hit the ground running based on everything I knew from the 90s, you know. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna get this kind of job, I'm gonna invest this way, I'm gonna, you know, this all the little things and steps so that I could be successful and I could come back and get the rest of my children. Like I was planning and like be successful within a year, you know. And my first challenge was getting a job because nobody had a paper application. And when I would go in person, then it's like, oh yeah, go fill it out online. Okay, so now I need to figure out that. So then, resume. What have I done with my life that is worth you paying me for? Because remember, for 20 years, nothing, no human had a dollar value. No labor had a dollar value. Everything was for the purpose of we are building this together. Everything is for that cause. Nothing was worth more than anything else. It didn't matter if you were a crew head or you were washing the dishes, you equally mattered. You know what I mean? And also it's like you show up, there's jobs. There's just something to do. You never felt like you didn't have something to contribute. Like even when I had major health problems and I couldn't do the typical things that people were doing, they I found things that created value so that I could still function.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Well still in the cult.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Well, yeah, yeah, this all in the cult, yeah. And you know, so then when coming out, it was just like, well, what does this employer want? What can I say that I've done? So my first application, it was like, I've been a stay-home mom, and I've you worked in a farm, and like it was just like this really like hippie type application. And I think the person really only called me in because he was just like, Who is this person? I I've never seen anything like this. Like, I literally think that's why they called me in because they already had somebody for the position I found out later. And I was like, okay, but, anyways, it was like that was the hardest. That's been one of the challenges is me learning how to communicate my life's experiences in a way that gets me employment, that that that also is enough to sustain my family, you know, because I have all my kids now. Like I have all my children, you know, two of them have jobs and careers, but they still need some help, and then all the rest I still fund. So, you know, um, so that's been a huge challenge is the communicating. Um obviously, you know, people who are older, we chall are challenged to understand what are the what are the latest trends, what are these, what are these words children are using these days, you know. But for me, when I first came out, it was even like I would try to fit in and or at least be present and people would start talking about something. I'm like, oh, what show or movie is that? That's an app. Oh, app, yeah, okay. And then they'd be talking about, oh, oh, what app is that? That's a game. That's like a a PS4 or a uh a the. And I'm like, yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. You know, it's like I literally felt like I came from Mars. Like there's a show when I was a movie when I was a kid about this family, they're walking through the woods, and the older child, who was like four years older than the younger one, wandered off, got picked up by a spaceship, goes up, gets dropped off. He's still the same age, but life has moved on 20 years. His younger brother is now older than him. Everybody's been wondering where he's at, and life had changed. Like he could not comprehend what life was like. He ended up going back in the un in the UFO and going back up in outer space because it it worked better for him. And so that's what it felt like when I came out here. I felt like I had been gone for 20 essential years of human development and cultural, you know, development and evolving. And I was like, what can I do? How do I get a job? You know, like how to explain myself. Um a lot of that. And then learning how to read people, like you have to read people differently in the cult. You have to, you you read people in the cult more like you do in a an abusive family, where you're just trying to see, like, okay, who's coming at me and where are they coming from? What mindset are they in when they're talking to me? I need to understand what they're really trying to say, what just happened before they came and talked to me, so that I understand where I fit into this. It's just like you'd so much reading people out here. I had no idea. Yeah, like I had no idea. Like, in and it was like, what do I need to understand before a person's talking to me? Like, what about that person do I need to understand? That's because it's very different than in the cult. I I had to protect myself in a different way. Out here, it was just like I felt very vulnerable. I felt like I didn't know anything. I felt like people were going to take advantage of me, which they did. I I did get taken advantage of quite a bit. You know, I felt like lost and determined at the same time. One thing I ran into was was with was with men. You know, I was like, I thought, you know, I'm into men, you know, so I go on Tinder just to find out how men, how to relate, because I knew that the woman I was there couldn't relate to the men out here because I wasn't about to be in the same situation. So I had to figure out also what are men looking for out here? If I want to date, you know, how to communicate. So I'd go on Tinder, I'd post a photo. Sometimes it'd be, you know, you know, very, very, you know, like girl next door, sometimes it'd be spicy, sometimes it'd be provocative. It was just like what gets what attention, what kind of people talk to me when I present different ways? Um, what kind of engagement do I get? Um, you know, learning how to read people. Tinder was just like a video game. I met one person one time just to see if I could like, do I do is this something I want to do? So, like everything I did from the time I came out was evaluating for myself, is this who I want to be? Is this something I feel comfortable doing? Is this something I feel comfortable being? Um, you know, I got into modeling and I had to evaluate how much of this is okay, you know, how much of it takes away from my children, or is this a me thing? Is it okay to do something for me? You know, um, I got to a point I was like, yeah, I can't do anything unless I'm making money because I'm the only person taking care of my kids. So if it doesn't make me money, I can't do it. You know, so I got to that point at a certain you know level and was like, okay, I need to learn how to invest from passive income then so I can be making money all the time. So started down that road, but um I've always been determined, and so I think that really just helped. I've also I don't know, it's like when I make a decision to sink or swim and I don't sink, I might, you know, doggy paddle for a little bit, trying to catch my breath and see the scenery and trying to figure out what's my next move. But um when I left, I knew that I knew I wasn't going back, but I also left myself personal space to decide that once I got out. Um, I made decisions before I left, such as do not incur any debt whatsoever at all, um, so that if I decide to go back, I didn't have to worry about somebody else paying it off. Um, you know, so there was little things like that that I made decisions about. Um, and so I didn't. But when I did buy a house, there's some debt and I, you know, it's a mortgage. But so when I bought my house, I knew before I long before I bought the house that I was never, ever going back. There was nothing because there was a certain point where I was like, well, I will build my wealth, and then if I go back, I will bring it back with me because I needed to allow space for myself to make those final decisions when I was away from there because I'd been there for so long. It had shaped who I was, it had redesigned my it had shaped my adult character, you know, like people are forming their their person, their adult personality in their 20s. I was there for my 20s and my 30s. I had my a whole marriage, I had all my children there, you know. I was I didn't really know who I was anymore, but I knew I was that person, and I knew that person very well, but I needed to know who am I now? Who and and then I think too, one of the huge like mind-blowing awakenings for me of what I had embarked on out here was um the first time one of my children was foolish, and foolish just means you're cracking a joke, you're being funny, like you're being a freaking kid, you know, like hey, look at that silly thing. You know, the first time one of my children was foolish, which didn't take long, um I had to stop and evaluate what do my children need to be disciplined for? Because in the cult, you discipline for discipline on the first command. You you were foolish. You, you know, you you we were raising future rulers of the universe, the people who were going to, you know, spread all of God's loving character through all the universe. We were, you know, and so my children were raised being told they're princes, you know, you're you're a ruler, you know. A prince doesn't drink tea with his spoon, he holds his cup like this, you know. Uh uh a ruler washes their dish and someone else's. You know, it's like a lot of leadership qualities were instilled in my children because they're the future rulers of the universe amongst all the others, not themselves alone, you know. So it's like you train them to behave as a king or a queen or uh, you know, their intended role. And so then all of a sudden it was like, wait, I want my children to experience childhood. I want them to, you know, so it's like so then I had to evaluate what is wrong, what is right, what is okay to let slide while I'm figuring it out, you know, because there's like you like you don't let anything slide there. If you let something slide, you're not a ruler, you're not connected to the Holy Spirit, because if you were, you wouldn't miss a beat. You know, the devil doesn't miss a beat, you shouldn't miss a beat. You're a parent and a teacher and this and that, but you can't miss a beat, you know, or you know, take your fucking head covering off, you're not here, you know, whatever. Are you even with us? You know, it's like so much pressure. And um, you know, so it's like reevaluating all of that. And then I had to go through my own personal things, like, who am I? Like going from being so prudish to modeling. And is it okay to be beautiful? Is it okay to want to see myself as beautiful? Is it okay to admire my beauty? Do I have beauty? You know, it's like I had to because like even now, like I have mirrors. I look at my ass in the mirror all the freaking time. If I look good, I'm looking at myself. But I get to, and I don't shame myself for it because even when I had babies in the cold and I would like be working really hard to like lose that baby weight right away. And my ex-husband, he like, I don't know, he looked like he was nine months pregnant before I was nine months pregnant, my first, and he still hasn't had a baby. I don't know, it's still there growing, you know, and so he would pick on me like, don't eat so many carbs, you know, don't don't eat bread, you know. But meanwhile, he's eating two desserts and he's not nursing a baby, and you know, so I'm putting a lot of effort into for myself, for my own health, but just to get some sort of, yeah, you're doing the right thing, even, or I don't know, just not being picked on, you know. And it's like, and then he'd just, I don't know. So I never oh yeah, and then I would just be like, hey, how do I look? I'm I feel like I'm the exerciser working, and he'd be like, It's the vanity of women to you know care about their looks, and it's the downfall.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

And I'm like, Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

So, so I can't care about my body, but I can't not care about my body, and it doesn't matter, you can go have two desserts.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

That's so crazy.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

And then when I did get and then when I did get thin and I ate a sweet roll, he was like, Oh my gosh, what's gonna happen if you get big again? Like, really? Like, okay, so yeah, I have no shame in being a model and loving my book. It's like it's my body, my choice, I look, you know. So, but yeah, so you know, I had to go through a lot of that, but that was that's been probably the hugest. Uh it's well, it's definitely transformative, but um very eye-opening too, because during my process of like literally asking every single thing that I do and that I think and that I feel, I've questioned why. Where does this come from? How does it apply now? How many ways can I look at this before I make my decision? And it's just like, I mean, it's totally overthinking, it's totally overanalytical, but it is what has helped me uh stay sane because coming from that into this world is very earth-shattering, it's life shattering, it's personality shattering, it's uh established safety shattering. Like you are not safe. You cannot go up to any human out here and assume they are safe. You just cannot. You cannot assume that they're not out to get something from you or that they're going to take advantage of you. It's just out here you have to learn how to look beyond the person because everybody's fake. Everybody. And that is one thing for me that it was like part of the promise there was you could be authentic. You could be your authentic self and be accepted. And so out here, it's like it's not that way with everybody, but that is how you have to approach it. Otherwise, you're gonna get suckered in, hurt, kidnapped, you know. Like coming from a cult. Here I'm saying this. Watch out for the people out here, you know. They might love you and give you poison. Hey, you go to a bar, you can get roofied. You know, I never got roofied in the cult. I drank their mate, I drank their Kool-Aid, I drank their tea. I was never freaking roofied, okay? I I may have been like subtly marriage raped, you know, kind of a thing like that, but just from a whiny freaking husband. But I was never actually like officially raped. There are people who have had other issues there, but in a bar here, I'm nervous about my cup. I might get roofied, you know. So there's certain there's there's certain safety factors that you're not trained for before you leave. And they do that on purpose. They don't teach you finances, they don't teach you anything that you need to survive. And even when I did do bookkeeping there, trying to do bookkeeping for a freaking community?

unknown 59:27

No.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

People who don't value money because money means nothing.

unknown 59:32

No.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

So it's very different out here. And then and then even how like people return favors, it's different out here. It's like you can do things because you love, but there, it's like you know your back is going to be covered. You know, it's like I could give everything of myself there and know that my needs will be met in a certain way. I might have to, you know, beg, borrow, and feel, you know, like trash for asking, but I'll get my toothpaste, I'll get my clothes, I'll get my food, you know, my rent is paid for.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

It's like out here, it's not the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

No, you gotta be everything out here. You gotta be the breadwinner, the emotional support, the your own therapist, your, you know, your own bodyguard. It's yeah, it's just different. And your nervous system can't isn't designed for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

So one of the things that is just really amazing, Sarah, is just the the level of courage that it took to come out of that cult and with two kids and really nothing, just go out into the real world and try to figure it out. I mean, I it it it's like jumping out of an airplane and having to figure out how to build a parachute on your way down, right? And the fact that the fact that you've been able to pull it off and you know, and you've just you've continued to grow and prosper and heal and develop uh is really quite amazing uh and really speaks to your level of courage and your willingness just to be open and learn and just never give up. Um and what I would like to do just in these last few minutes is just kind of open it up to let you say whatever it kind of whatever you would want to say that we haven't talked about yet. I mean, what are kind of some final thoughts that you would like to share with everybody?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

I think it's important to know that um no matter what you go through in life, if you use it as a tool, uh a stepping stone, and a learning lesson, then you can view life through a totally different perspective that will open your horizons rather than close them. But um, I think like if I had held on to the the the um the abuse in my in my perspective, like there's there's people who have left who they handled it very differently. You know, um I think any kind of trauma that we go through, it's just important to keep just keep asking yourself questions all along the way. Like, how does this make me feel? Because you need to give yourself room to just love yourself no matter what you've been through, it's not your fault, and use it as your strength because one of the things that I learned at a very young age through much pain was there's people who want to hurt me, and I took that pain, and we're not gonna go down this rabbit hole conversation, but I formed a way of turning that into pleasure in a way that I could look them in the eye and take away their power because they intended to hurt me, and I turned my pain into pleasure and strength, and they had no more power over me. There was nothing left they could do, and that is honestly where I have found my my power is by taking the things that meant to rob me of my agency and rob me of my freedom and what I'm here to do in my lifetime, whether it's decided beforehand or whether I decided it myself. Um nothing, nothing is a barrier. A mountain can be moved as long as you find the right tool. You know? Can't go over it, can't go around it, you can't go under it, get some dynamite and blow a hole through it. Like I will move any fucking mountain that's in front of me, and I'm at the place in my life now where I've moved so many mountains I know I can move mountain ranges, you know, and that's literally where I'm at in my life now. I've taken everything I've been through and I've been creating teams and communities and homes and spaces for many different types of groups of people, you know, that just they know that they can be themselves when they're around me and in whatever spaces I create.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

Man. That's uh I mean, you're truly uh an an inspirational woman. I mean, the things that you've gone through and and and you're just such a a delightful, likable person, you know, and and to have gone through everything that you have, and just having the the strength and the courage and the tenacity just to keep blowing holes in those mountains, right? And and turning, you know, I I really like the way that you that you talked about how you know the the people who tried to hurt you, being able to redirect that so that, you know, their their words and their deeds don't, you know, don't don't eviscerate you, don't don't break you, but rather using that, just turning that around and just kind of projecting that back on them so that the people who want to wound don't have the power uh to really, you know, I mean, of course, it's you know, things that people say and things that people do can be disappointing and hurtful, but at a certain point there's the you know the the ability to kind of turn that around and project that back out so that you can keep moving forward. And man, I mean you're you've just got such a powerful story. I I really, really appreciate you um you being vulnerable and and uh and and opening up and and sharing everything. So thank you very much for uh for being here, Sarah. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

Thank you.